Holland: Might this go as high as George W. Bush himself? Ratner: Well, we didn’t name Bush or Cheney in any of these cases because they, as current office holders—as essentially heads of state—have immunity from national courts. They wouldn’t be immune from a U.N. court, if there were ever a kind of Nuremberg Tribunal—but they are from national courts. So while we have them named as unindicted co-conspirators, we don’t list them as actual defendants. But we certainly will, afterwards, and … Holland: Wait, let me make sure I got that. You’re saying that after 2009—January of 2009—you will be adding them to the complaints? Ratner: Oh, absolutely. They’re on the hook then. And it’s going to be a hot world for them, because the world knows this—this is an emperor’s new clothes situation, because everyone in the world knows that the U.S. is running a torture program. You have to remember, this wasn’t kept secret. And in my view, it was purposely exposed either because there was a desire to get vengeance, or because of machismo, or just to say to the Muslim world: “If you fall into our hands, we’re going to take you to Guantanamo and we’re going to torture you” as a way of controlling that population. It’s been done intentionally and openly, and they’ve gotten the American public, somehow, to go along with it. They’ve convinced many people that they’re safer, or that these are just a bunch of Muslims, and we don’t give a damn what happens to them.Another reason for those countdown clocks to January 20, 2009.